Beyond Sunday
Beyond Sunday is a podcast where we dive into what our Church is up to, what's happening in society, go deeper into topics from Sunday mornings, and hear leadership talks and coffee break theology from Pastor Greg Griffith. This is a podcast of King of Kings Church in Omaha & Fremont, Nebraska. Learn more at kingofkings.org.
Beyond Sunday
Sinners Anonymous — Week 2
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Dina, Tyler, and Pastor Seth continue the Sinners Anonymous series by looking at Jonah’s rock-bottom moment and what surrender really means. They explore why lasting change comes not from trying harder, but from trusting Jesus, embracing progress over perfection, and allowing God to meet us in unexpected places.
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Welcome Puns And Disney
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings podcast, where we dive a little bit deeper into our message series and see what we're taking Beyond Sunday.
SPEAKER_01Wait, wait, wait. Uh-uh. I see what you did there.
SPEAKER_00Uh uh uh we're going to dive a little deeper. If you have not watched this week's message, there are quite a few puns in it that you may find enjoyable. Or not. It doesn't. It doesn't float my boat, Dana. It doesn't float your boat. I don't know. Just I I'm all in. It's hook, line, and single. I'm not good with puns on the fly. My name is Dina Newsome, and I'm ecstatic to be here with you today. I was out last week, but um, I have some spectacular guests today. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Before we share, where were you last week, Dina?
SPEAKER_00I was at Disney World. Yes, you were. I um Disney is one of my favorite places. And um, when I imagine heaven, it is very much like Walt Disney's imagination. So um just a lot of people. Created him special. Uh yep, yep. My daughter and her family took a trip down there. So my son and I tagged along last minute. And so it was a very enjoyable trip. I was telling, was I was I talking to you? No, I was talking to somebody earlier that I said I could go to Disney, not ride any rides, and I would still love it. The people watching there is fantastic. Plus, I just love the the wonder of the setting, you know, the little things. Like if you notice how the stones on the floor on the ground change from like one area to another area, or just there's so much detail.
SPEAKER_01Everything's so well thought through. Yeah. I could see someone with Dina's giftings, which is like observation, but also hospitality, guest experiences, like that would be a haven for you. And I can imagine all of the details and like the little hidden Mickeys, that's probably a big deal.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yep.
SPEAKER_01So here's my question. Yeah. If you were to design a church, would you design it with like that much intentionality, right?
SPEAKER_00I would love to design it with that much intentionality.
SPEAKER_01And so the corridor is gonna have cobblestones.
SPEAKER_00The problem, the one problem with designing a church is you need it to be flexible because things change too often. Disney doesn't have to change quite as often. They can just keep the same. Then they remodel. And yeah, it was great. I had a great time. It was a great time away. But go ahead, spectacular guests, and say hello. Introduce yourselves.
SPEAKER_02My name is Tyler from the Fremont campus.
SPEAKER_01And my name is Seth. I'm from the Millard campus. We are spectacular.
SPEAKER_00You are spectacular. Um, thanks for being here today.
CitiServe At Open Door Mission
SPEAKER_00So um, this morning, all three of us were participating in Citiserve. This week, King of Kings is celebrating Citiserve, which is our time when we unleash unprecedented hospitality and love on our city. Um, and so we were out serving an open door mission today. So we all uh we all got our got some standing in, we got some clothes sorting in, food sorting. What else? What other jobs did you guys do? We kind of got split up at the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we were in the Timber Lake Outreach Center at the end. We got to eat lunch with the the the get the residents there. That was good. Um yeah, so by the end we were putting like bedding out on in the Timberlake Outreach Center. I was helping Aaron and Patrick put a bunch of Rotella's bread together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you guys were Tetrising those buns in perfectly. I'm telling you. They were filling uh hot tacos.
SPEAKER_02She is referring to Rotella's hamburger buns. Rotella's hamburger buns.
SPEAKER_00Buns in packages.
SPEAKER_01Which I've looked. I have not been able to find expiration dates printed on Rotterdam.
SPEAKER_00Rotella's, yes, yes, uh Rotella's. I did not know that we got a tour. They have a brand new um hospitality center there where they have the new kitchen and stuff. I did not know about the zero hunger policy there. Um our guide today was explaining. Those of you that are here local and uh know about the open door mission, Candace Gregory, who um is the head out there, has a zero hunger policy where people can come back for seconds or thirds or fourths or fifths. She doesn't want anyone to go hungry, so there's no restrictions on how people can come for food. And also, they're always open for food donations for that kitchen so that they can feed everyone.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and the food they prepare is like legit. I was very impressed.
SPEAKER_00They got a good crew.
SPEAKER_02Also, do you guys want to hear a fun King Kings Fremont connection? Yep. Because as we were walking, as we were walking through the kitchen today, Christy and I ran into Brian, and Brian works part-time in the open door mission kitchen, and then he also works part-time in the Aspire for Greatness program, which is the after-school program that houses out of King Kings Fremont in our basement, the office building. And we're just walking through, and I was like, oh my gosh, it's Brian!
SPEAKER_00Hello.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so we we took a photo with him.
SPEAKER_00It's a small world sometimes.
SPEAKER_02It was fun. It was fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wrote It's a Small World at Disney.
SPEAKER_03Everything comes full circle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That song.
SPEAKER_00No, I I I my question for you guys today has to do with service.
Most Fulfilling Ways To Serve
SPEAKER_00I want to know what is your most fulfilling service opportunity that you've had? In ministry, we get a lot of different opportunities to serve. And some of them are part of our routine jobs, and some of them are times like this where we step a little bit outside and serve our community in some way. I'm curious, what's what's something that's been the most fulfilling to you or unique?
SPEAKER_01Does it have to be a King of Kings or like a ministry job?
SPEAKER_00In ministry or just person your personal life, a time that you served in your personal life. Anyway, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I got one I can share. All right. So I've been on a number of mission trips, international trips, that sort of thing. Um I went to Bailey University uh for my undergrad. And uh one of my favorite experiences there was being a part of the men's choir. So imagine like a hundred to a hundred and twenty college men. You know, it's like it's just so fun. Um, great singing. The director down there, Randall Bradley, he actually just won um the Big Twelve, because Baylor's in the Big Twelve, um, like Professor of the Year award. Oh. I was like, oh my goodness, Dr. Bradley, big time. Um, anyway, where are we going with this, Tyler? So after my sophomore year, the Baylor Men's Choir did a mission trip to Kenya. And you'd be like, what did a men's choir do on a mission trip? And and so, like, it was very different than what I was used to because all the other trips were more like kind of uh were discipleship focused or evangelism focused or you know, building relationships with partners. This one was it was continuing to build relationships, but it was through music and dancing. And so we would, and I know as you're hearing this on the other side, you're like, oh, I bet I could see Tyler dancing.
SPEAKER_01Yes, not those listening to the podcast. We're gonna make this a video podcast for this week only.
SPEAKER_02And and so being able to build build bridges and then ultimately uh into gospel presentations, but through music. And so we learned a ton of songs in Swahili, um, and then you know, some areas like Nai Nairobi, which is much more urban, and then down to uh very remote villages. Um, but being able to just bring communities together through music, it was absolutely incredible. Um, and it's very different than what you would imagine a you know a mission trip would be, but it was exactly what we were built for. We were a choir. What do choirs do? We sing. Yeah. Um, and to not just bring joy, but then also to carry the love of Jesus with that.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. Did you sing um listen, God is calling? That's one of my favorite hymns from the hymnal, but it's uh I believe it's a Swahili based off of a Sweet.
SPEAKER_02We did not. I hear I'm hearing the melody of the main song that we did, but I'm trying to remember the lyrics. Maybe by the end of Haku.
SPEAKER_00Tyler and Seth are gonna sing it for us.
SPEAKER_01I think it's I want to say hakkunamon. God is calling. Yeah, anyway. I can't sing. I can make fun of singing, but I can't sing. Seth, share yours. All right, so um I've shared at some points that my sons have had some difficulties and had to have some hospitalizations. Well, with our youngest, we were at a hospital in downtown Los Angeles for seven weeks. And in order to be able to keep your spot at Ronald McDonald's house, which I needed to do for Melinda's sake because she was there Monday through Thursday, and I was off from work on Friday and Saturday. And so I would go and we would switch so that I could at least spend some time and Melinda could have some time away back with our other kids. I mean, we were just switching all over the time. Um, but what it meant is I would have to walk from uh the children's hospital in Los Angeles to the Ronald McDonald house. And now with the Ronald McDonald house, you could get in at any time, you could get out at any time, you'd just be able to swipe in. But I I didn't want to just go to sleep. Uh I didn't know anybody there, I didn't have anybody there. So I would just walk around and meet with people and bus stops. And what I liked about that is no one was watching. It wasn't organized, it wasn't a program. It was just an opportunity to sit with people and talk to them and get to know their story. And if the moment allowed, then I got to talk about the hope that I can have and share. And if it didn't, then I was able to trust that the spirit's going to bring somebody else, much like he brought me in that moment to just be a listening ear or whatever. And it was just to me a very pure opportunity that I got to experience in just listening to what the Lord was saying, or maybe I was just making it up in my head. But if I saw somebody that was alone, I could go and just hang out with them. And uh, oftentimes they weren't waiting for a bus. Uh, they just needed some shelter. And so it was cool just to sit down and talk to people and get to know them better. But like the the coolest part of I mean, like just hanging out with these.
SPEAKER_02Are you about to say that you broke into a Sawa Healy song? Is that what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yes. The coolest part. No. Uh no, the coolest part was we were right across from the Purple Palace of Scientology. Oh, yeah. So I did spend several nights getting to know the folks that kind of like w walk out on the streets and they're all in like their sea org vests because it's all built on like a naval perspective. And the ability to witness to them was like not only stimulating in the conversation, but it was also very fascinating to see how people just crave hope so deeply that they would be willing to believe anything to experience it. So I would say those are kind of some of my bigger, very deep experiences of service.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, I think probably the most fulfilling for me is my relationship with Hong Kong. I spent 10 summers in Hong Kong. So I think the length of time there and five of those years, the teams, some of the students from Hong Kong that we worked with came here to Omaha first, and then we would go there and get to work with them. So I think that has a lot more to do with how much it hit me. But the one that I wanted to talk about was um Disney Elementary.
SPEAKER_01That's you to say Disney World again.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it makes me think of Disney.
SPEAKER_02It was just this morning that you were telling me about Disney World at Hong Kong. So it really does all come back.
SPEAKER_00But um the the opportunity that I have had in my role here at King of Kings to serve at Disney Elementary. And then the times that I've taken also just separately to go work in the print room and cut out things for teachers. I, it's so simple. Like I say this all the time. We take a snack cart there. Each of our campuses has a relationship with a public school that we just love on. We just show up for them and we just keep showing up. And one of the things we do is take a snack cart around. And we are taking around this cart of free snacks, and a teacher will pick out a cheese stick and a Dr. Pepper. And this last time I got to take Erin, our new associate campus director, we went and there was probably 20, this was the first time for this new school year. There's probably 20 staff that said, This is the best day ever. And I'm like, okay, a cheese, like in the grand scheme of things, a cheese stick and a Dr. Pepper is not necessarily, I like my Dr. Pepper, but I don't know if it's best day ever. But it is just such a moment for them where they feel seen, they feel valued. And that to me, I just that there's such joy that comes from that for me. I just really appreciate that relationship.
SPEAKER_01So just so you know, we're not gonna kick you out. So if at any point in the future you'd like to tag in with us, you can still do it.
SPEAKER_00I'll just pack my own snack cart from home. I live so close to that school that I'll just show up there one day.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna come in one day and they're gonna be like, no, you can go back.
SPEAKER_00All right.
Sinners Anonymous And Jonah
SPEAKER_00So we are in week two of this sermon series, Sinners Anonymous, and Pastor Zach Sender is taking us through this. And um, you know, this was week two. What are you guys taking beyond Sunday from this week?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for for me, it's more of a meta thing um with a lot of sermon series, it is kind of building off of a week, that sort of thing. And and some it's just, you know, we're we're walking through a text or that sort of thing. This one, I'm like, oh my goodness, the continuity is so significant. And so even the way that Zach is titling the messages last week was I can't, the the episode of Beyond Sunday that uh the Lovely Land of my left here, Seth hosted and Dina's Absolutes, right? Ex what was it? Ecstatic, spectacular, lovely. Yes, all the all the editors.
SPEAKER_00All of them, yep.
SPEAKER_02Um and but we we don't want to stop at I can't, right? We're not fatalists, we're not hopeless, but we're also our hope is not in ourselves. And so so then to then continue the story with Jesus can, so I surrender. And even that is only what the first three steps out of 12. Um, and so to just to recognize the continuity, we need every step of it. And it's also just amazing how those steps weave in with the story of Jonas so beautifully. It's not forced at all. Um, and I think it's gonna, it's been very enriching for me, and I think it's gonna be very enriching for all of our campuses as the series continues.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. And I think like within our culture that's focusing a lot on health optimization and uh hacking your life, biohacking, you know, like all of these things about you can do this, you just have to take this angle to get there. Um it is refreshing to be able to hear, no, you can't. Like the more you you spend focusing on biohacking this one aspect of your life, just by the nature of having finite abilities and time and access to resources, something else in your life is going to go worse. And so it is freeing and it's exhilarating to just be able to say, I can't, and to say and praise him that there is someone that can, and just to look to Jesus for grace and peace, uh, so that it's not something that we're working for. So that's what I'm thinking beyond Sunday.
SPEAKER_00Um, I really focused on the part where um this this point in the story, we got to where Jonah is in his despair, you know, and Zach talked about being at the rock bottom. And he said, What comes out of you when you were at rock bottom? And I really got the image of like a toothpaste tube when you're trying to squeeze the last little bit out of there. And I was like, Okay, what comes out of me when I am at bottom? Like that's something I can control how I react to things. I can't control the situation around me, but I can control what it is that I'm focusing on then. And just how he emphasized how Jonah really did surrender and turn to God and pray. And I was like, okay, how can I remember to do that and not frustration or anger or, you know, um arguing with God, you know, let me take the wheel now. Clearly, you don't know what I want or need. Um, so I that's I really am focusing on that piece.
SPEAKER_02That was one of my favorite parts of Sunday. Um I I I didn't think about it again until you just mentioned it, but he was he was talking about how Zach was talking about how so often we read the book of Jonah and we're like, Jonah, come on, man, you know. But like one very redemptive part, as we read in chapter two, is Jonah knew the scriptures and specifically the Psalms. And and so the the point was like, okay, everything is being squeezed out of Jonah right now, right? And so then what's gonna come out? Well, he he in what whatever whatever like formation Jonah went through as God called him to be a prophet, what's what came out of him at his rock bottom, it was the word of God being prayed back. And the Psalms talk about like storing up the word in your heart that I might not sin against you. One of the when when people talk about Bible reading and they're just like, I just don't feel anything, that sort of thing. Like, well, there are times where we we feel great comfort and consolation or conviction from the word, but you like we have to always think long term, how is God shaping us? Because we don't we don't know when those squeezing moments are gonna come, but when they do, man, in this case, could we be more like Jonah when that squeezing comes? What comes out of us? It is the word of God. I was chatting with a guy yesterday going through some really difficult spots. And he's like, I just keep praying, the Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? Which is straight out of Psalm 27. I'm like that, yeah, that's how it should happen, where we it's just in our hearts so much that what else would come out of us? It's God's word.
SPEAKER_00There is an amazing volunteer that I worked with at the last church I worked at, and she would teach, we did like a fifth and sixth grade pre-confirmation class. And there was a trend, late 90s, early two, well, no, early 2000s, going into 2010-ish, where everything was going away from scripture memorization. That used to be a big part of things. And everything was kind of trending away from this. And she would like fight that tooth or nail. And she would always say, I need these kids to memorize some scripture. And I don't care what it is, and I don't care which parts of it is, but when they're in a foxhole overseas, or their wife has just left them, or they've lost their job, or a child has died, or a parent has died, I want them to have some words to say.
SPEAKER_02Especially kids, like their brains are sponges for memory.
SPEAKER_01They're made for that. Yeah. And I I remember that time period and I fought against it as well. Not because like I'm super smart and I had figured it out, but I just knew personally for myself how much I railed against it while I was going through it. But then on the other side of it, when I needed the word, it was always available rather than like there was no step in between, well, I have to go grab a Bible. I have to go seek this thing out. It's not because I knew all of the scriptures, but I had memorized, I had to memorize enough scripture where it was always there. And what I think the sad part about the point that you're bringing up, Tyler, and I think the point that we're even making here is why is it why does it take rock bottom for the word to leak out like that? Like that tran that realistically, that tangibly. Um, it's almost like it's this I don't know. What would you say? Like it's this nebulous kind of concept at many times in life. Uh, but when the rubber meets the road and something really, really tragic occurs, then all of a sudden there's weight to this word and there's consolation to this word. So, you know, I I guess for me, when it comes to being in the word regularly, I am more regular to have it leak out uh than not if I'm regularly in it. Uh, but otherwise, the only times when it does actually make its way out of me in a way that's real is when things are really bad. And I really don't want that to be my only interaction with the word. Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_00All right. So
What Comes Out At Rock Bottom
SPEAKER_00we're take going through the story of Jonah and relating it kind of to the 12 steps. Um, so in what ways can the story of Jonah be seen as a metaphor for the journey of rec recovery and surrender?
SPEAKER_02Well, Seth just mentioned the the rock bottom side of things. I I really appreciated um both in the the highlighted words that Zach drew out is is just the downward imagery. And and that really is the first half of chapter two. And so the the deep, you heard me in the depths uh uh going down here, engulfing exactly. Yeah, the deep surrounded me. It was down, down, down, sank down, barred me forever. And then and this is why it's so helpful kind of on that helplessness point you brought out earlier, Seth. Um, what is what is what happens in verse chapter two, verse six? But you, Lord my God, brought my life up out of the pit. Um, and I don't I don't have a ton of experience working in recovery communities. I I was familiar with the whole higher power idea that Zach drew out. Um, but that's a significant thing, is like I need someone from outside of myself to pull me up. I know in my own will and my own decisions where I've come to. And so I need something higher than me. We as Christians can say, Jesus Christ, to pull myself out of the pit, to pull me out of the pit that I've dug for myself.
SPEAKER_01To add on top of that as well, do you guys remember uh when we were at uh opendoor today and the development director, I think is part of his position, was talking about the recidivism rates when it comes to uh substance abuse. How um opendoor provides almost a mirror of programming when it comes to what a state-run agency would provide in terms of like substance abuse recovery. But uh what was the recidivity was it 17%? 17 with the state run. With the state, and what was the percent with Jesus involved?
SPEAKER_0062%.
SPEAKER_01I thought it was higher than that. Yeah, I thought it was in the 80s. Oh Pastor Math Dina. Round either way. Either way, there was a
SPEAKER_00Close to a hundred.
SPEAKER_01But there was a substantial, like a statistically substantial difference between 87%.
SPEAKER_00Was that 87? No, there was a lot of numbers. I'm just remembering that. I was thinking I was thinking it was an 80%. 87%.
SPEAKER_01But that's huge. That is a giant difference. And the only thing different that he said that's different in their programming that would set theirs aside from the other was a reliance on Jesus Christ to be able to insert himself into their lives for the sake of recovery. And I mean, that's kind of a very interactive real way that you see the Lord's work word working.
SPEAKER_00So I'm a little bit familiar with Alcoholics Anonymous Anonymous. I had a person very close to me that I loved very much who is an alcoholic. And um, so I was a part of Al-A-Non for a while. And the idea of rock bottom is very um clear there because most of the time people don't ask for help or try to turn it around until they've hit their rock bottom. It may not be the ultimate rock bottom, but it's their rock bottom. And so one of the things that that we would talk about in the Al-Anon meetings was you can hold out your hand, you can offer to help them, but if they're not at their rock bottom, they're not going to reach out and grasp it. And so the imagery of Zach talking about how far down they were going and how God was there, he's there with his hand out, waiting to pull us up. You know what I mean? From what we're doing to ourselves. Um, but that was very clear to me. I, yeah, I really resonated with that.
God’s Provision As A Stinky Fish
SPEAKER_00Um, the sermon mentions God's provision often comes in unexpected forms. Can you discuss a time when God's provision surprised you?
SPEAKER_02I'm looking over to Seth's phone here. He's like, has Greek or Hebrew on the what are you doing over there, man?
SPEAKER_01I'm getting ready for a question. No, I just noticed something. Can I can I insert what I just noticed?
SPEAKER_03Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01All right. So we're talking about the Lord saving Jonah and the Lord, you know, like really stepping into people's lives and intervening for substance abuse purposes and saving them. So the word here at the end of Jonah chapter two, and I just just checking in the Hebrew to make sure that I was on point here. Uh Jonah chapter two, verse nine, uh, Jonah says, I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord. And I know that, you know, uh Zach did a really good job of bringing Jesus, quoting Jonah into this past message. That word salvation is Yeshua. Salvation, Yeshua, which is also the Hebrew name Yeshua, Jesus, uh belongs to the Lord. So like there are echoes of Jesus' work in here. Uh Jesus himself connects him to the sign of Jonah. Uh, but when it comes down to it, Jonah really does have nothing to offer. Salvation belongs to Yahweh. Jesus is the one that brings us back to Yahweh. So I was just looking up to make sure that the the Hebrew root was the same. But now we have to go back to provision.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00Time when God's provision surprised you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I appreciate how Zach drew this out because the the at least my text during the NIV, it does use the word the Lord provided the huge fish. And so, and so often we talk about provision, we're talking about the the things that come across as good things, right? In in like in how how it comes to us. And you know, so I've had I've had moments before, right, where someone will just show up, you know, just kind of come up to me and hand a check, right? And it's like I wasn't expecting anything like that. A check is not a huge fish.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02Um and so so the the story comes to mind. I shared this at Freemont a couple months ago. Um and I'll I'll do it briefly here, but I was a sophomore at Bet Baylor in the honors college, and for um uh a solid eight and a half to nine hours a week, I was at the front desk kind of as a receptionist. And I um the kind of the the way that the situation worked out is it they they allowed you to work on homework um as long as you got your other stuff done first. And I lulled myself into a spot where I'd work on homework, and then my boss would be like, Hey, can you do this? Can you do that? Now, for those of you that are bosses or managers out there, you know the last thing you want to do is continually ask your people to do the things they should do. And and you know, and of course, you know, I'm like a sophomore kid at Baylor, thinking so highly of myself. And then I get called into her office in November and she says, I'm not bringing you back next semester. And I was like, dun, dun, dun. What? Who are you?
SPEAKER_00Plot twist. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Umir dancer. That's exactly right. That's right. But the the reason I thought about it here is the the provision of that um rejection like formed in me, like just a fundamental part of life. But it's like you need to know is like if if you if you expect to get paid, you have to do the job. Like you're not entitled to a to a paycheck. It's because you you work for it and then you get paid for it. Um, and and so like I would I'm so thankful that that fish, as it were, was as a sophomore at Baylor working 10 hours a week while I was taking 18 credit hours, than as a 29-year-old working at a church that could potentially, you know, like have like ruinous effects on my family and the people that I'm leading, all that sort of thing. I'm like, thank you, Lord, for that fish as a 20-year-old, then later on.
SPEAKER_01And I like how he did he talked about the fish is gonna stink. Uh, and oftentimes in our fallen world, the fish stinks, and that is the circumstances that we're in stink. So for me, um it's hard for me to talk about this, not because necessarily it's it's emotional, and it is, but because I do not want to give any credit to something that is negative or bad, uh, and try to assess that to the Lord's doing because I don't know. But I'll just tell the story and the you could probably see where the tension lies in trying to tell the story in a way that's real and true, but also doesn't like try to ascribe something bad to the Lord. Uh so when one of our children, I don't use their names when I tell stories because I haven't asked their permission to do this, and I I just has had it have had it as a practice, unless uh I talk to them first. I don't say anything about who it is. But when one of our kiddos was really, really little, we're talking like months, months old, um, he got RSV. And that's just like it's a common thing that a lot of babies will get during RSV season. And if it's really bad, you go to the hospital and get some breathing treatments. They stabilize after a couple days and get to go home. Well, my little one wasn't stabilizing at all and was still uh dropping in their oxygen saturations regularly. And so the doctors were like, Well, it's a good thing that you came in for the RSV because we, you know, did an X-ray and we found out actually there's bilateral pneumonia here. And we're like, oh, well, that's an explanation. So what's what do we do? And they say, Well, there's, you know, it's bacterial, so we'll give an antibiotic and we'll make sure there's IVs and breathing treatments, and you know, within a week, you guys will be home. We got to a week, and they was still uh having issues uh with keeping his oxygen saturations up. And we're like, uh what's going on here? And the doctor's like, well, I don't know, but all of the stuff that would be easy to fix, uh, we've exhausted already. So we're gonna do another scan. And so they scanned him for cancer. And he had cancer. Like this little baby had cancer. Now, we wouldn't have known if uh he we wouldn't have gone in for the RSV. And if we would have just brought him home like everybody else, and said, Yeah, it's just pneumonia, no big deal, we'll take him home. Uh, we would have never found out that he had cancer. When they identified and took that first scan, it was the size of a pencil eraser. But by the time we actually got in for the surgery, which was not that much after that, it was the size of a golf ball when they actually excised it. And so it's one of those things where you're like, if this then that wouldn't have happened. And if that wouldn't have happened, then this wouldn't have happened. And then after all of that, he recovered. He was still in the hospital. And um we still didn't have any explanation about why he couldn't keep his oxygen saturations up. He had recovered from the cancer removal surgery, everything's looked like it was okay. And um, it turns out he had this disease uh where when he falls asleep, his brain just doesn't tell him to breathe. And this is something I've talked about with the staff before, but I don't think I've told the story about like it was this diagnosis which led to this diagnosis. So I'm not saying the Lord caused our little one to get sick, but that's a provision, like an alien work, you might say, because it's not his proper work to cause like bad things to happen like that. But perhaps there was some kind of um Do you want to explain that so people don't think that you believe in alien alien? So you might believe in aliens. Uh so there's a theological differentiation between the ways that the Lord works. There are the ways that work in line with the aspects of his character that we often see and interact with. So, like his justice, his compassion, those are that's him. That's how he's working, and his actions line up with that. But then there's also things where you're like, um that action is very um convicting uh to people. So like we could say the Holy Spirit has an alien work that is convicting people. So the the Holy Spirit's working in repentance, and that is an actual changing of your mind and of your body and everything else to go from one idea of what life looks like to another idea. So that's that's the definition of an alien, alien work, not uh Ridley from Alien Movie is gonna be fighting against whatever Seth has made a visit to Area 59 recently.
SPEAKER_0251, what is it? 5151, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Actually, it was 59. That's the top secret version of it.
SPEAKER_02We've been we've been monitoring flight records to New Mexico.
SPEAKER_01All right. But anyways, sorry, you're sorry. I go, I go back to the theology of the cross and the theology of glory. Uh, that was a provision that we weren't expecting. And yet, if those circumstances wouldn't have been what they were like, uh and the Lord would not have provided really good doctors in those moments, they could have just sent them home at any point and they would have been fine. Uh, but the Lord provided in a very interesting way. Uh, and we're just thankful that our our son is as healthy and and awesome as he could be as he follows Jesus. So that would be a provision, a weird provision story. And it was stinky at the time, like the fish.
SPEAKER_00I have kind of a similar example. My um daughter, my eldest daughter, and her husband, uh, one month after they were married, uh, moved to Hong Kong to live for a year as missionaries to teach. And um at Christmas time, so this was the summer, they moved over there in the summer. Um, she got pregnant in the fall. And then at Christmas time, they came home for a visit. Um and when they went back, it was the very first of January. They came home for like two weeks for low. And then uh when they went back the very beginning of January, this was in 2020. And at the time, there was a lot of protests happening in Hong Kong. Anyone who follows the political spectrum knows there's a whole bunch of stuff with China and the um ownership of Hong Kong. And so there were a whole bunch of protests, and there was a lot of American press that was coming over for these protests. Um, my daughter and her husband's visas had not been officially approved in the six months they had been there. This process was being drawn out. And so when they tried to re-enter the country in January, they were denied entry. So all of their belongings that they had moved there were in Hong Kong and they could not get in the city. Um, and so they had some friends pack up what they could, bring them their stuff because they were like on a little border town and they ended up coming home. And this was such a frustration and a heartache for them. Because here they felt like, like for a while, I think they felt like God had failed them. Like, why did this happen? They had signed up to serve him and were very fulfilled in the ways that they were serving him. They had made a year commitment. So they were gonna be home by the time baby was born and had this whole plan. And then March of 2020 happened when COVID and international flights were shut down. And had that happened, they never would have gotten back home before a baby was born. Now, I know that they would have been, God would have cared for them in any way, whatever, while they were there. But um, it was just something that was very frustrating and hard for them at the time turned out to be a blessing because of what was happening two months down the road. And like further down the road, you know, they they landed the jobs that they still currently have right at that time. And would that have been the same situation had the timing not been the same? Like it's just, you know, hindsight is 2020, but I those are the times when you can really see God's fingers in the plan that you thought was a not uh it was a big stinky fish.
SPEAKER_01You know what? When things aren't good around, like when we have an issue, I think we should just be like today was a big old stinky fish.
SPEAKER_00That's what it's known as.
Interpreting Suffering Without Certainty
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can I hijack for a moment? Yeah. Seth, I want to ask.
SPEAKER_01You could lowjack, you can hijack, hijack, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Medium rare. Well, yeah. Um, okay, so Seth, question for you. So, you know, we have the five weeks in Esther of Game On, where you know, we said God's name isn't in this book at all, but his fingerprints are everywhere, that sort of thing. And then in the book of Jonah, like it in terms of like naming God's activity is very clear, right? And sending the storm and all that sort of thing, and the fish. Um calling Jonah. So we're we we we we as Lutherans we believe that God is sovereign, that you know He's his ways are higher than our ways, thoughts greater than our thoughts, but we're also maybe different than other theological streams in not trying to figure out everything that God is doing. We're not looking for silver linings behind every bad thing. So, what's a what's a way for us to read Jonah through a healthy theological lens, especially as we think about God's actions in our lives?
SPEAKER_01All right, so this kind of goes back to my sensitivity about telling my story because uh within the Lutheran framework, we have this really uh healthy way to approach the scriptures. And it's Lutherans are known for like a this or that dichotomy when we're approaching anything. So, like saint and sinner. Uh, in this case, it's called a theology across or theology of glory. Is this kind of what you are thinking about as we're talking through this?
SPEAKER_02I just think it's a good good way to kind of frame what what's going on here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So for me, when I'm reading the scriptures, as someone who has learned through the Lutheran tradition and follows the Lutheran hermeneutic, that's like the principles for studying the scriptures. Uh what I try to do is when God has spoken and said, This is why I have done what I have done, then we can with all confidence say that. Uh, or if he says, This is what I promise to do, then I can have confidence in him saying that. But when something happens to me and it's not governed by what he said about in the scriptures, I cannot with any confidence say that this is what God has spoken. So when when Jonah says, You have done this, you have done this, uh, and there's nothing that's going to contradict that view within the whole of the scriptures, then we can ascribe that that God actually did that thing. He actually, there was a storm that was sent purposefully. There was a fish that was sent purposefully. And you can find all of the rationale for that within Jonah itself. But when things that occur in my own life happen, and there is nothing in the scripture that dictates that God is doing it in this way for this reason, I cannot peer into the heavens and tell God this is why you did what you did. It's it's like that to me, that's the biggest amount of hubris and the the most lack of humility that Christians can have when we begin to tell God why he's doing what he's doing. And yet this happens all the time. We're trying to find some kind of justifying rationale rather than allowing God to be God and do what he's doing, and we submit to him, which is actually like where we ended up at the end of the message, which is why I think it's healthy to say, I can't, Jesus can, so I surrender. So even when it comes to the hard things that we're doing, rather than trying to find some kind of silver lining or some kind of rationale that may be true, but most likely isn't, uh we just surrender to the Lord doing what the Lord is going to do. And then we are called to do what we are called to do, um, loving our neighbors as ourselves, giving honor and praise to the Lord, trusting and a faith in Jesus, having hope that he's going to return. So uh to me, that's a healthy way to look at Jonah and say, this is what occurred within Jonah's life as prescribed from the Lord, and this is how I operate in my life. Is that kind of like what you're doing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, absolutely. I I often think about, you know, um Mary in Luke 1 and 2, where over and over again she says uh scripture says that she ponders these things in our hearts or she treasures these things in her heart. I think it's a really healthy posture for us to where we're we're taking it in, we're observing, we're not pretending that we didn't experience what we just experienced or anything like that. But we're just kind of we're just kind of keeping it there and being okay. I think this is where the the challenge for us, it's like to be okay with the the gap of what God has revealed and what we want to know. And it's like it's okay to just stay at say at or stay at here's what I know God has said. Anything beyond that, maybe I have a hunch or a guess, but like you said, I I can't have confidence in it. Um, and that's okay. I'm gonna trust that God knows what he's doing, and I'm his child. His promises over me are true and sure.
SPEAKER_01Because those are spoken in the scripture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, and then being okay to release the rest to like it's okay to live with mystery and some I don't knows. Actually, a lot of I don't know's.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, I think that this generation is more open for I don't know's and mystery than than my generation. My generation is very formed by rationalism, so then you want things to make sense. And what I've encountered doing ministry with like student ministry, young adult ministry is this open ability for mystery to be able to be like, you know what? I tried a bunch of stuff in my life. And the Lord is still the Lord.
SPEAKER_00That's my favorite line from Luke when Mary ponders stores all these things in our hearts. Ponders them. That's the best.
Progress Not Perfection And Purpose
SPEAKER_00All right. How can we practically incorporate the idea of progress, not perfection, into our daily walk with God? So this you can't, I can say, can you remind me where in this like so progress not perfection is is I I don't know if it's that the quote, that is the wording that was used in Al-Anon when I was in Al Anonon. We would talk a lot about it, progress, not perfection. So I don't know if Zach pulled this directly from the AA handbook or what, but just the idea of it was the idea that we would talk about it is daily personal growth. You are taking baby steps forward. It is not going to be perfect. You are never going to be perfect. In fact, the thing we used to talk about was being perfectly human and beautifully imperfect was the the pieces of it. And so any movement forward was progress. So that was even if you had taken movement backwards, then still any movement forward was progress.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. At Open Door earlier today, one of the workers there, he was showing us there was a bot giant crate of uh donated cookies that we were putting in the freezer. And just offhand, he oh, he said he said, Yeah, I used to have a sweet tooth a lot. He's like, but I'm three years sober now. And he's like, it's just kind of it's it's I don't have as much of a sweet tooth now. And I'm like, man, praise God, like three years. And I and who knows how many years before that. Um yeah, this is this. I mean, I guess it's kind of going on the heels of the conversation we just had. Um progress, there that there's a good side of it, and then maybe a more cautious side of it. Um I I think as Christians, we should be growing in Christ-likeness and taking steps forward that you know, Lord willing, 20 years I look back on my life and I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm more generous and more kind and more humble and more gracious and um more submitted to the Lord. But on a day-to-day level, my goodness, like the flesh is so nasty. Like we are we are terrible sinners bent on everything against God. Um, and and this is where maybe those in recovery communities really feel it because they they just recognize because they've hit rock bottom, like I've I've tried to do it on my own. I I know how weak I am and my own strength. And it's like they almost have language for the flesh without without it, like they have a really healthy view of a human at that point because they recognize their need for God and and how they they aren't sufficient and reliant in and of themselves. So, in that sense, you know, Jesus says, Blessed are the poor in spirit. Maybe the best sense of per of per of progress is recognizing just your need. Like the more I recognize my need for God, that's probably a pretty good sense of progress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what I appreciate about that is it doesn't put you on a grade scale for discipleship. And I think when some people think about progress, they think about I am qualitatively better than I used to be. And if that's the case, then you are qualitatively better by your own works. And even in our sanctification, if we try to hold up our good works, like Isaiah says, it's like. filthy rags. And so I I would I'm not disagreeing with like there is good progress that you can make in the Lord working, you know, like the overcoming of substance abuse. Um but just in terms of like you just crucify the flesh every single day. And if that's what you are called to do, then that's what you should be called to do. And it doesn't need a grade to it or it doesn't have to be like, well, I'm uh at a negative two yesterday and I crucified the flesh yesterday. So now I'm only at a negative one. Uh I think it's just a matter of uh crucifying the flesh and placing our faith in Christ. And the cool thing is that's all a work of the spirit. And so we don't have to worry about like backsliding and the what I found in recovery, like programming is that some of the hardest times for people are not that initial removal of the whatever it is that's addicting to them. It's after the first time they relapse because of the whole idea of I should I have a disappointment in myself. I should be further along than this. Uh I don't know why uh this hit me the way that it did. And I've just found time and time again, it's that first backslide where people are just like well all that work that I just did, it's now worthless. No, Christ covered over that. So I would just go back to crucifying the flesh every single day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah that's really valuable. Yep. So can you reflect on the notion that God rescues us not only from something but for something. And Zach talked about this and how does this impact your sense of purpose well if uh we were not to stop at Jonah 2 but move right on to Jonah 3.
SPEAKER_01This is where I was going to go yet 40 days. Yeah shortest sermon ever.
SPEAKER_02Totally I mean it's gonna the the whole book is just amazing. It's an incredible book. But yeah like the God did not save Jonah just so that then Jonah could go on being disobedient. Like he had a task he had a job he had a calling he had a vocation um and he's Jonah he was not being asked next back next semester just kidding yeah um it's it's an interesting verse nine where Jonah's uh like we've kind of all had those moments right where like God if you get me through this I will dot dot dot yeah um so what I vowed I'll make good and Jonah kind of has a mixed report card on that coming up in chapter three and chapter four. Um and so even the the things that God calls us to it doesn't mean that like I think Seth what you were just describing is is a great is a great um springboard there. It's not like okay now God got you back to even and now it's your job to carry forth it's no it's it's Christ all the way through and then it's so it's Christ for me and Christ in me and now it's Christ through me but it's it's really his power and we're gonna see that in verse in chapter three because like what do you say the the the sermon's five five words? I think it's eight well in English it's like eight words. In Hebrew it's less. Right. And so it's it's all God's power that the these nasty Ninevites what is 127,000 come to come to come to repentance um and so it's it's not because Jonah is so great with his words it's just that God is working through it and Jonah happens to be the instrument um and so even the things that God calls us to for purpose it's not us. We had an interesting situation in Fremont last week I was meeting with one of our leaders on Thursday morning and normally I'm in our office building our office building is different than our church building but we were meeting in the church lobby and so I had unlocked the doors and then as in the middle of this meeting on Thursday morning a gal just walks in and it was like oh my gosh like I'm I I'm so glad we were here because she would have just jiggled the doors and walked on and then after 20 30 minutes of talking and praying giving her a tour talking about life with kids and showing her kids ministry uh Carrie was able to run and get a gift bag for her so she didn't walk away empty handed. We prayed with her and she gave us her information. I was like and then I shared with our team on Sunday like so much of what we're doing in ministry is just being faithful to create the environments where then God can do his thing. And and like we did not strategize like okay if we are meeting at 915 but we meet in the lobby and we keep the doors unlocked then this per it's like no it's just God just did it and then we're just ready to receive him and be faithful with what he puts before us.
SPEAKER_01Well I mean basically I was going to say the same thing. You're welcome Seth especially about my experience at Fremont person I had the same experience. But actually I did have a very similar experience on Sunday after service was over uh there were two very lovely I like that word that was good I'll use it very lovely young ladies who were a part of the foster care system and just happened to come to worship and heard about Baptism Sunday coming up and they asked a ton of questions and they want to get baptized here. And again there was no part of the there wasn't a structure to be like and then we sent them a text message and an email and it and then then all of our programming ideas worked out it was the people that were taking care of them brought them here because they knew that Jesus has something to offer for them and the spirit worked in their hearts and they were able to respond to that. So um like Jonah had eight words for a whole city to you know come to repentance and be drawn to the Lord. Um these people just these young ladies just got a chance to hear of Jesus's faithfulness. And it was a little bit more than eight minutes or eight words it was a little bit more than eight minutes.
SPEAKER_00But it was still drawing them to Jesus and I think anytime we can have an environment uh that allows for that proclamation it's it's going to have a response my almost four year old granddaughter um likes to do this thing where uh she'll reach her hand out when she knows she's too far away from you and say I can't reach you I can't reach you so she'll do it like when she's I don't know on the top of the slide I can't reach you I can't reach you. And um when Zach was talking about how God rescuing us I kept thinking of this because really Zach talked about the down when he was talking about how far down and what he said was when we go down God comes down to rescue us. And I kept thinking of my granddaughter I can't reach you and sometimes I feel like that but you know what God can always reach us. There's no stretching there's no like he's just there. Um and I just kept picturing that image of he's just waiting. He's got something that he's waiting to take us to we just need to let him like he's gonna make things happen. He's just ready always ready and always there.
Practicing Surrender And Final Takeaways
SPEAKER_00All right how can we cultivate a heart of surrender and trust in God's plan even when they differ from our own desires what do you think Dana this is where I really thought of the I really thought of the bargaining you know if I can just get back to even I'll stop I mean I think eliminating bargaining talk from God, from our conversations with God. It's never like if this then this you know what I mean it's like I don't know just stopping you know God I would really like you to help me in this moment but there's there's no promise God's promise is eternal life like his promise is already fulfilled I I I can't ask him to also you know if you do this then I promise that I'll do whatever because I know I'm a sinner and I know I'm not gonna come through. And so I think that um that piece of things is allowing God's plan to work and allowing me to be open to it instead of dictating myself this is what I want to happen. Because maybe it is part of the plan that I need to go through this struggle from what I'm gonna learn from it or who I'm gonna impact through it. Not that it's again not that God is dictating that this bad thing to happen, but there is good that come comes from those things too. And so um I don't know just being open to what he has planned for us and not always trying to get out of those things.
SPEAKER_01Well aspirationally the biblical story that was brought to mind as you talk about that is uh Shadarak, Meshach and Abednego because they're they're like you're gonna be thrown in the fire unless you do this. And they're like look even if I get thrown into the fire that's fine. And look what happens as a result of their even if uh it was the Lord was faithful in that moment to get them out and through the fire. But even better, uh Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego will be on the other side of heaven when we get to see them. And so whether they would have perished in the flames like a lot of martyrs did in the first century um that makes no difference to them even if they're still going to be faithful. And so that whole bargaining part it's not a part of their vocabulary. So as you were telling your story and talking through that that was the first thing that came to mind.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah we we talk in seminary a lot just emphasizing God is the creator and we are his creatures um and like you know in in is it in Jeremiah or Isaiah uh he is the potter we are the clay just like you are God we are not I might think I'm super smart and wise and I got this whole thing figured out like I don't and so what what other option do I have but to say God I got to follow you and it's gonna be limping along and trying and failing but I'm not gonna delude myself into thinking that I know better than you.
SPEAKER_01Well actually I take that back I do delude myself into thinking that I know better but then I recognize it I repent and I start over takeaways from this week's message final takeaways uh I continue to be excited for each Sunday's message because of how it builds together and I've already heard some stories of folks whose strongholds are being destroyed by the Holy Spirit um or even uh better there's folks who have gone through recovery processes and this is bringing them back to their appreciation for their recovery and I had a conversation with a lady in the corridor this past weekend about how she prayed for and she inserted her name and I don't I'm not gonna say what her name is just in case she's listening. She's like ah no she's like I'm praying for everybody else and she inserted her name that was just like me.
SPEAKER_02Wow and oh gosh yeah you know we kind of I remember Seth we were sitting around the teaching team table as we were reviewing some of these messages and I think we all just kind of had that collective sense of like yeah God's gonna do some great stuff here. And so I would echo that and then also back back to the whole idea of God providing the huge fish. Zach made a great point like God provides first. Like it's not Jonah prays this elegant prayer and then the fish comes it's not we recognize our sinfulness and then God sends Jesus. It's like no he actually provides the provision first. And man if that doesn't cultivate some gratitude in your heart to what who God is and recognize our need before we recognize our need, like he knows what we need before we ask. And so that's that's like that's what I that's what I'm taking away of like thank you Lord for being that kind of a God.
SPEAKER_00Mine is just Jesus can is greater than your can't that hit hard for me. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01That needs to go on a shirt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right thank you guys for being here we will uh see what happens with week three of Sinners Anonymous this next um week if you have not been up at a service or watched I encourage you to catch up and come this Sunday and hear more from Pastor Zach. And until then let's keep living our faith beyond Sunday
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