Beyond Sunday

Family Matters - Week 1

• King of Kings Church

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Dina, Pastor Zach, and Tyler talk honestly about holiday family tension through the story of Jacob and Esau, showing how forgiveness brings freedom even when relationships are messy. They offer practical wisdom for rebuilding trust over time—with healthy boundaries, honest conversations, and the reminder that God’s forgiveness is what makes our own possible.

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Thanks for listening!

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings podcast where we dive a little bit deeper into our message series and see what we're taking Beyond Sunday. My name is Dina Newsome, and I am excited to have some wonderful gentlemen with me today. That's a title, guys. You got to step it up. Gentlemen.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I'm always curious. You do an adjective and then uh a word after. So today was wonderful gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00:

Wonderful gentlemen. I'll take it.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm Zach, and this is I'm Tyler.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for being here today, guys. We're happy to.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, actually, I've learned in counseling I should talk for myself and not others. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02:

It just so happens. I am also happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00:

It also happens that I am happy to be here. So much joy. Three peas in a pod. Okay, so I don't know if you guys know this. Today is national, no, international.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, international.

SPEAKER_00:

Christmas card day. So my question for you is your family a Christmas card family? And are you like where you send out Christmas cards? Do you do like the little letter or the summary thing or digital cards? Now some people do digital or no, not at all.

SPEAKER_02:

Our family's shaking his head. Our family is a no, not because we're opposed to it or anything, but man, like I've been in ministry for 12 years. The first 11 and a half of those was a full-time worship role. And like you don't, you barely sleep between the month, between Thanksgiving and Christmas with everything going on. And it's never been something that Aaliyah's been like, man, let's get the family picture done. So we gladly receive others. And and then people can find us on social media. They can knock on our door in Fremont. We're we're here, we're smiling.

SPEAKER_03:

That's interesting. I always thought worship leaders had a ton of time. So I wasn't sure how they filled their week outside of looking at like skinny jeans and latest trends.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that that would define me to a tease act.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh, we've we've gotten more and more minimized over the year. When we were early married, it felt like we had the pictures with the letter. Lots of time went into it. Now uh I we sent out a picture last year. I don't even think we did that this year. Typically, Allison's been the champion of it. So it's really whatever she's in the mood for. And I'm like, cool, great. I'll write it. I enjoy writing it, or I did enjoy writing it. My favorite was is though our my brother-in-law, who's our campus director here, Peter Bay. He and my sister Carista, they send out a Christmas card that has their family photo and they have a spot the difference. So there's the nice family photo, and then there's the next photo right next to it, which has like five, six, seven, eight differences, and you got to find what they are.

SPEAKER_02:

But very minute differences. It's not even all very hard. It's not even yes.

SPEAKER_03:

It's it's my it's the one I look at everybody's card, and I'm so grateful for everybody that sends me the card. I read every letter, every word from every letter. But my favorite thing to receive is their family phone.

SPEAKER_02:

And and to Peter's credit, like he's created this brand and expectation. Yeah, it's very, very well marketed. He's created brand loyalty, customer loyalty. Well done, Peter and Christa.

SPEAKER_03:

And the good news for every Beyond Sunday listener out there, email Peter at kingofkings.org and you can get a Christmas card from Peter and his family this year.

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's not only the picture though, it's the letter where Peter writes his creative imaginative and then Carista corrects it and says, No, it wasn't really X amount of whatever or my sister who is blunt and truthful and gives it to you straight.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a perfect reflection of their personalities.

SPEAKER_00:

That is. That's a that's Peter. Wow.

SPEAKER_03:

Family's fun, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Did you know that Christmas cards were invented as a marketing ploy?

SPEAKER_02:

Tell us more.

SPEAKER_00:

They were in 1843, Sir Henry Cole, who was part of the British civil service, created the first um Christmas, modern day Christmas card to promote the newly formed British postal system. He wanted something that people could mail. So he thought this was something to do. I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

And now it just gums up our U.S. Postal Service so that everything else is delayed.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So we started a new sermon series this week called Family Matters, and Family Can Be Tricky, uncomfortable, wonderful. All of those great um um adjectives. And Seth Flick, Pastor Seth Flick started us off with this. So from this first message, what are you guys taking beyond Sunday? What stuck with you?

SPEAKER_03:

For me, it was uh probably what stuck with me is probably his sticky statement. Uh, forgiveness is a must and trust takes time to adjust. There's a lot to unpack there, which I'm sure we'll do a little bit of, but that's the thing I'm taking beyond Sunday.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, what I took beyond Sunday, uh we'll we'll get into the story of Jacob and Esau, but it what was what's so fascinating is like it was 20 years of family estrangement based on two moments. Like how significant moments are. And then if we don't pursue reconciliation, look at all the consequence that can come on the back end. And it was two relatively everyday moments.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I really liked he made the statement avoidance and secrecy doesn't solve a problem, it only delays the consequences and how that played out in Jacob and Isa. Sorry. Okay, so to start out, he was talking about Family Matters, the sitcom with Urkel, everyone's favorite. Did I do that?

SPEAKER_02:

He did a really good job doing the Urkel impression. Did I do that? Exactly. Very, very nasally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm curious, what were your favorite sitcoms from your childhood? And how do you remember that their lessons stayed with you?

SPEAKER_03:

I my favorite was home improvement with Tim Allen. So fun. Every week it was funny. It was Jonathan Taylor Thomas, JTT. He was like every girl's heart throb. Like he was the guy. Anyway, it was a it was a pretty funny show that my family sat around and watched. It was it was pretty sweet. And and kind of ironic because I'm the like the probably why I related to it and my why my family related to it is because we're not very handy or maintenance is not really our strength.

SPEAKER_00:

Not a Tim the Tool Time Taylor.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, here's the Tim the Tool Man Taylor, but Tim's making all these mistakes. It's like I feel like, yeah, that's me. Except somehow he got the job of being a tool man guy.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, he's a he was a TV host.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and and we had a fence growing up, which if you remember the neighbor was Wilson, and you never got to see his face. Only you don't you only get the wisdom, you know, across the fence from Wilson. And our fence, there was a guy that I feel like was that. We never really saw his face. He was just there. He didn't give us wisdom, but we called him Wilson. I don't know if that I don't know what his name was.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So the show that came to my mind, and I think Seth even referenced it in the TJF lineup was Full House. And uh, and so you can just imagine I can just still see that San Francisco set with the blue couch in the living room, and you had what Danny as the dad and Jesse as the uncle and then Joey was like the friend adopted uncle. Does that sound right? Yeah. Sure. But Seth mentioned, he's like, you know, these sitcoms, they they have some sort of conflict and they resolve within 20 to 22 to 24 minutes. And Full House had this amazing formula that within the last two minutes, it was always like one of the dad figures sits down with the girls and they talk it out and then they hug it out with all the sappy music behind. And in terms you asked, like a lesson, right? From it was like hugs, like it was it's like kind of giving this like cultural permission of like, let's be a hugging family. This is a sweet show.

SPEAKER_00:

I like that.

SPEAKER_03:

Big Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen fan there. I didn't go that far, Zach.

SPEAKER_00:

He was clear to lay that line.

SPEAKER_02:

Michelle was an adorable character though. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

I grew up with the Cosby show when it was still big. And um, I that was just what our family watched together. And what I remember from there were the parents were always right. And I just like to say that as I became a parent, I really missed that and did not find that value as much on TV to share with my children. Um, so but it is the parents just always knew better, always.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And we still do, kids. Yes, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, okay, so the biblical focus for this week's message was talking about the sibling rivalry between Jacob and Esau and that relationship. So, does one of you want to kind of summarize what pieces we talked about this week with that?

SPEAKER_02:

I'll attempt and then Zach can clean any clean up any.

SPEAKER_03:

No, this is great. Poor Tyler, I don't know if people know this, is going to seminary and I get to serve as his supervisor, which feels ridiculous. And so this is fun. This is me supervising you and uh seminary. You can actually just listen live to see how well he's doing.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go. Okay, pressure's on. Um, all right. So we're we're in Genesis 27. So wrong 28. I'm just kidding. So Isaac is the kind of son of blessing from Abraham, miraculous blessing, miraculous birth. And then he has these two uh two kids with Rebecca, um, Esau and Jacob, and they are like rivals from birth, like uh where Jacob is like pulling at Esau's heel, even coming out of the birth canal. Um, and so Seth, almost in like a treating it as if it were a TV sitcom as he was going through the story, um, highlighted these two kind of moments where Jacob is described as a taker. And like, I don't think anything he said was incorrect. Like he really did, he took the birthright from Esau, and like Esau was willing to sell his birthright because he was hungry. It must have been a very good pot of soup.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, my my actual takeaway now that I think about it is I think lentil stew, let's just forget lentil stew forever. It's never done good for anybody, it doesn't taste good, it ruined this guy's life. Yeah, and so that would be my takeaway. Go ahead. You're doing great.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

I needed a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a that was the theology that I really needed to give that theological point.

SPEAKER_02:

It's good, it's good. Um, so yeah, so so Jacob takes the birthright, kind of trades the birthright because Esau's in this vulnerable state because he's so hungry. Um, and so that means that Jacob is now kind of takes his place in the messianic line. He's now representing his family um as the head of the household. And then later on, Jacob steals um Esau's blessing. And so that familiar story where um Isaac can't see see very well. And so uh Rebecca has this crazy idea. It's like, oh, well, let's let's put put kind of the the the what was it sheep sheep's wall? What was it on the heart? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So then Isaac can't he can't totally tell, but he's like, oh, this kind of smells like Esau, it feels like Esau. So he's like, I'm gonna give him the blessing. And then this so sad story is when Esau comes back in and he's like, Father, have you not reserved a blessing for me? And the answer is no. And so, because of that, you can imagine the resentment that Esau has towards his brother, who is now just taken and taken and taken. Um, and then Jacob is encouraged to flee. Uh, I think we're actually going to get into that story this this coming week. Um, and then 20 years pass before this reconciliation moment. And so Seth was able to kind of navigate each of these moments and draw out the sibling rivalry aspect and where we're prone to do it, givers, takers, um, and then hopefully pursue reconciliation.

SPEAKER_00:

Well done.

unknown:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Good job.

SPEAKER_03:

That's only one course out of 16 completed at the seminary. Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_02:

After 16 classes, I might be able to summarize things quicker. Maybe that's what I'll get better at.

SPEAKER_03:

That was great. You did great.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So, in looking at the relationship between Jacob and Eesu, how does this story help us understand sibling rivalry and really more so family dynamics in today's culture?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I and I know that the coming week will be focused on sort of parents and um things like that. How do we how do we trust parents or when you know parents are making decisions or even make mistakes, which does happen actually, kids, we do make mistakes, we don't know everything. But but a part a big part of the rivalry, it's kind of a bummer because like, yeah, Jacob and Esau are the ones we're talking about, but actually it kind of stemmed as well from the parents. Like they each picked their favorites and they kind of put them at odds with one another, which is super challenging and frustrating from the very beginning. And I think the big piece I picked up from Seth in the sermon is just how different uh parenting styles or uh not even just parenting, but uh different styles of when there's conflict, there's uh a lot of unhealthy ways to not resolve conflict. And one of them is to fight, which is what Esau wanted to do. Another one was right, flight, which is what Jacob did. And when we have issue or when something wrong happens, when it's in especially if it's in our family, we we've got to come to a place where we're gonna have conflict and we've got to figure out healthier ways that we're gonna resolve this and not just avoid it, which is uh a real temptation and and easy and comfortable. But it it it it lingers and it creates, in their case, two decades that they lost that they could have who knows what would have happened in those years and what their relationship could have looked like.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so Ephesians 4 uh talks a lot about like unity in the body of Christ, and there's a phrase that Paul uses he says, bearing with one another in love. And I think in some ways it's actually easier to bear with one another in love with those that you don't live in a house with. There's something about the kind of proximity of relationship, and it's like, oh, like we're not getting away from each other that can actually make things harder. And so whether that's in a marriage situation or a parenting situation, or in this case, a sibling situation, like growing, growing up, my my brother's four years older than me, my sister's six years older than me, and like and if Corey's listening to this podcast, I don't think he would disagree. Like, we just didn't get along growing up, and it's like no matter what my parents did, like it just there was it was it was tough. And I'm happy to say that you know, he went off to college. I kind of grew up a little bit, and now he's like one of my best friends. But there's just something about being together and especially being siblings, it's just fraught with difficulty. And so then the question is, how are we gonna deal with this in a way that's not destructive?

SPEAKER_00:

I have twin brothers. They're four and a half years older than me. And I always thought that they were the best of friends and you know, totally against me. But as it turns out, when I think back about our growing up, one of my brothers I got along with all the time. And the other one, we fought like cats and dogs all the time. And I don't know what it was about that relationship that just poke, poke, poke. But I would say now I am closer probably to the one that I fought with more than I am to the one that got along with both of us better.

unknown:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm I'm fascinated at sibling relationships. I'm fascinated at how God creates us so uniquely and how those relationships fit together, but also at how we um how siblings can help each other grow. Like those siblings to me are your first where you learn about trust, you know, or where you learn about cooperation, or you learn about forgiveness. Like I think more so even than your parents, it's your siblings that you learn a little bit more about that because you you love them or hate them at any moment, at any day.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and and it is, it's the ones you're practicing, even if your parents say it, you need to say I'm sorry. You need to say I'm sorry, or you will have XYZ happen. And so I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that's where we're so heartfelt.

SPEAKER_03:

Whatever, but it's where we first learn to say those words. And it and it's just so much life on life. And and I do, I think that it's really easy to get competitive and to have rivalries, and especially in the day of age we live in, uh, it's very easy to compare. And and it's it's really challenging uh to grow up, you know, as a young person in today's world and uh have many different expectations placed on you. And if you have a sibling that is successful, um then that's a threat to you and or it could be, and and so it's really hard. And and when we compare one another, and you know, there's all this birth order stuff of first child, middle child. I'm a middle child, so I'm basically forgotten in my family. So the whole everything I do in life is just to try to prove to my parents that I'm still here, you know. Um, but no, everybody's got different whatever with their birth order. There's there's so many dynamics, and some of it's true, some of it's generalized, obviously, but um, but it it really is challenging when you know so-and-so gets more attention, or so-and-so gets the award, or so-and-so is getting the attention and they're and but they're get like getting in trouble to in order to get the parents' attention. So it's all these weird things at play, but you're right, Tyler. It's like we're still here and we're still family, so we've kind of got to figure it out.

SPEAKER_02:

So the other thing as we think about the Bible, like siblings are all over the Bible and stories of siblings. So one, it's just this almost like, thank you, Lord, that the scriptures that you've given us are actually reflective of real life and not this like idealized sort of things like, oh yeah, there was legit anger. Esau wanted to kill Jacob. That's not like that is reflecting Esau's real reality. And then if you fast forward to the New Testament, so much of what happens in the Jacob-Esau relationship is seen in Luke 15 and the parable of the prodigal son, where you have an older brother, you have a younger brother, you have comparison, like Zach just said, you even have that moment where right, like the father is running and there's the reconciliation. Um, that and that's like the Esau-Jacob thing at the end. Um, but for for us to actually grow spiritually through the whole story of the Bible, I guess that could be another thing that I took away from Sunday is seeing that fun connection in between Old New Testament.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I can't say I enjoy the stories like this, but I enjoy that um it seems like people that are written about in the Bible are not on a pedestal and unbeknownst to struggles and rivalries and hurtful actions. And so then it makes me feel less out of place when those things happen in my life.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, and I I I feel like there's a lot of folks that Jacob's such a big name in the Bible that I think a lot of people associate really good things with him. Yes. Uh his name was changed to Israel, right? And he would have 12 sons, and he would also, by the way, not learn from his parents' mistakes. He would choose favorites. Got him into a whole lot of trouble. Jacob is a jerk. Like honestly, he re there's multiple chapters of this guy's story. Not a lot of Bible characters get multiple chapters on them. And and it's a challenge to find anything worthwhile for Jacob. Like he's a punk. Esau's kind of uh kind of seen on the outside and maybe in, you know. For people that don't know their Bible enough, might seem like kind of the the maybe because he wasn't chosen or or whatnot, as and his name wasn't changed to Israel. Uh Esau's a little bit more of a likable character in the story, if I'm honest with you, than Jacob was. Yeah. And they have this beautiful reunion 20 years later. And it's what's really neat about this whole thing, which gets to, you know, Seth's point about forgiveness, is Jacob was so fearful of seeing Esau even 20 years later. And when they met, Esau met him with this incredible grace and this incredible forgiveness. And that's 20 years later. We they didn't speak. So we don't know that, yeah, he wanted to kill him at first, and you would too, if your brother did all these crappy things to you. But like at some point, Esau came to terms with it and forgave his brother. And I would argue that's what why forgiveness is so important for us, is even if it doesn't change the other person, you need that for yourself. Like by you not by you not forgiving someone, a lot of times we think that person's paying for that. They're not. You're the one that's paying for that. Esau actually was free. Whereas Jacob, the one that got away with it, he was the one that was imprisoned. So anyway, that was kind of a tangent, but Jacob's a jerk. That was my point.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, Dina, I don't know. This is I don't know what direction this podcast is going, but it's great. Um one like in in the Psalms, Yahweh is referred to as the God of Jacob. I know, isn't that cool? Like that he's he's not, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, what do you take from that?

SPEAKER_02:

Like he's the god, he's the god who who embraces sinners and works redemption through I was about to say broken situations, but that's like screwy situations, like deception. God God is the god over sinners who deceive, not because we deserve it, but because he loves us so much. Um to to be in a spot like Esau and Jacob, how often are we caught in like a vain imagination wondering what the other person thinks? Right. So Jacob for those 20 years, he knew he knows that Esau wanted to destroy him. And then he's just left up to his own vain imagination. And and if we're not careful, like our flesh and the devil will take that and all the life that was lost because of it. And so when we talk about the value of speaking words of forgiveness, we can set ourselves free and we can set other people free in the redemption of Jesus. Um, and even back to family, you guys, Zach, you referenced this earlier, but forcing kids to say I'm sorry, right? As begrudging as they would. I think it's also really, really healthy for parents to apologize to kids and model that confession and forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00:

That is a game changer for kids.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, because then you are you are saying, I'm not, I'm I'm not gonna hold myself hostage and I'm not gonna hold you hostage of what I don't want you to be left wondering what I think of you. Um and yeah, it's 20 years. It's a long time.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it was really valuable Seth brought up later um about the point of forgiving someone doesn't mean that you're allowing them to continue mistreatment also. And I think that comes up a lot today in conversations about people, you know, cutting people out of their life or or um just estranging people, that you can forgive someone and you're letting that go for yourself, but you don't have to continue to allow them to repeat the treatment that was causing that hurt in the in the beginning.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it doesn't mean that there all the consequences get removed and that everything goes back to what it was.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. For sure. Like you said, it's really about you and not about them.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So the sermon highlights the importance of forgiveness in resolving family conflicts. What do you think are some barriers that prevent family members from reaching the point of forgiveness? And how do we try to overcome those?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, the the first one, it's probably most obvious, is our own pride. Yeah. It's really, really hard to get past like that that step of humility. Like that is the first step. But then I also think it it's you rarely is it so one-sided where it's usually in these sorts of situations that there's sibling rivalry, there's something on each side. There's there's some level of offense on each side. And so there can be this fear of humility that then is this is that person gonna weaponize it against me if they don't also meet me in humility, and then they don't acknowledge I acknowledge my wrong, they don't acknowledge their wrong, like that kind of sense of fairness. Does that resonate with you guys? Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

That's good.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I I think so. Yeah. I mean, you look at a pie graph, like it's not, I shouldn't say ever, but I would say it's rarely ever 100% your fault, 0% mine, or vice versa. Like, even if there's 1%, like I gotta own my the 1%. But I go back to something that I I think I really learned in the process of writing and delivering forgiving challenge years ago. And every room I've ever been in, I ask, who do you have who's it harder to forgive, yourself or someone else? And it's about 80 to 90 percent that say themselves. So there's some real things that need to be tackled amongst friends, siblings, parents, kids, all that stuff is very real. But I go back to the the idea and the connection that Jesus continually makes that we are called to forgive others, but nearly any time Jesus ever talks about forgiving others, he first talks about receiving forgiveness. And so a forgiven person is a forgiving person. And so I I feel when we try to bring two parties to the table to reconcile, if we're bringing two broken parties, that's going to be challenging. But if we're bringing two forgiven parties, um, then we can have some real conversation. And so I would actually put this more, and I know this sounds sad for those of you who are who have been hurt intentionally, have been sinned against, but I would still say it starts with you. It starts with you going back to God the Father and receiving God's forgiveness for what whether not even necessarily for the situation that that you may have in your head. But you have been greatly forgiven. And when you receive that and you believe that, then you understand it's your call to forgive others. Doesn't make it easy. Still really challenging, but it is what we're called to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Seth referred a lot to taking being a taker in this. And I really liked how he kind of wrapped up at the end and he talked about Jesus as a taker and he takes our debts, he takes our grudges, he takes manipulations, and he takes our failure. And he does that through his death on the cross, takes it all up there with him and gets rid of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, my my son Nathan wrote a post-it note. He's trying to work work this out in his favor. And so he said, if giving equals winning and taking equals losing, then if I give you the opportunity to give me something and I take, then I you would ultimately win in the end. He's got a whole equation on here of essentially how he can be a taker and still win. I did not follow that on the spinning.

SPEAKER_00:

His wheels are spinning. I encourage free thinking.

SPEAKER_03:

He's he's gonna probably minor in philosophy. So these are the sorts of things. If giving is winning and taking is losing, then Tyler, if I give you an opportunity to give by me taking, then ultimately you would win.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it reminds me.

SPEAKER_00:

But I could counter that you are not really a taker if you are giving the opportunity. Then technically you are a giver.

SPEAKER_02:

It reminds me of my cousin who, when after learning the golden rule at Sunday school, I think she was five or six years old. She then goes to the playground the next day and she gets in trouble because she punched another kid on the playground. And when the principal said, Oh, honey, why did you do that? And she said, Well, we learned the golden rule in church yesterday, and so he must have really deserved it. I'm like, Oh weaponizing the playground. Exactly, exactly. Like that must be how he wanted to be treated because that's how he treated me. One way of doing it. Oh, it's good.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so um, the phrase forgiveness is a must, but trust takes time to adjust comes up in this sermon. How can this principle be applied in relationships outside of the family, like friends and coworkers?

SPEAKER_02:

First of all, a three-part rhyme, props to you, Pastor Seth Flick.

SPEAKER_00:

Forgiveness is a must, but trust takes time to adjust.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. It's good. So how how it applies to relationships outside of the family?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. You know, I we we we talked about this a little earlier, but I I this really does go to the conversation around boundaries, which um is really easy to talk about in the abstract, but very difficult to live out practically. Um, and so you know, an example of a boundary would be um if someone has has um made it made promises to you over and over and over again and they keep breaking them, um, then you would set up some sort of boundary of like, um, I I'm you know, I'm not gonna talk to you on the phone, for example, if you're going to raise your voice. And if you raise your voice, I'm just gonna hang up. And then when you're ready to talk, we'll hang out. That's why you said that to me yesterday.

SPEAKER_03:

That was good. It was a good boundary. Now I get it. Sorry, I was pretty passionate.

SPEAKER_02:

It's exactly right. When you're ready to calm down, Zach, we'll talk again.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Let me go get one of the core counselors and we can work through this more.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Um, and the way the Seth framed is so perfect because we're not given an option of whether we should forgive. Like Jesus just makes it really, really clear. Um, and but then to not but then to give some space to say that this does not mean that you have to go back to where everything was. It is fine for you to have boundaries and to allow trust to rebuild. And it's also kind of on this side of heaven, it's okay if trust doesn't rebuild. You're still called to forgive. It's actually commanded to forgive, um, but we're we're still sinful humans on this side of eternity.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I and I think it it gets back at like kind of the twofold part of what forgiveness is, right? So there's there's a really two actions. There's a canceling of the debt, and then there's the stopping of the feeling of anger or resentment or revenge or whatever. And I think for a lot of people, the canceling of the debt, as hard as it may be, it that is kind of like a one-time action, you know. If I if I steal from you, um and I and I, I don't know, if I stole your car, Tyler.

SPEAKER_02:

Man, a lot of offenses from against the city.

SPEAKER_03:

And I and I and I ruined it, I wrecked it, right? Like you paid for that. Like that like I'm now that's a one-time action, it's done, but then you would have a lot of anger, resentment, I would think, towards me. And and so that's more challenging, though, is that working out. That's the thing that I think takes that time to adjust. It's like it's not a you know, overnight flip flip the switch sort of thing. It's uh it does take time. And it and you're right when you said it's not everything's gonna be perfectly settled on this side of eternity. Not everything has to return to the way it was. But I'm better, I'm better when someone has harmed me if I'm able to forgive that person. I'm living in freedom. And and that, and that's great for me. And I think we all need to get to that point. That's what, by the grace of God, we all have the opportunity to be free.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, uh I really enjoy Brene Brown. And she does a thing with her own kids when she teaches them about trust called the marble jar. And she talks about everybody that you know has a marble jar. And every time that you invest in that relationship and they return it with, you know, trust being contained, um, then they earn a marble. So slowly their marble jar fills up. Um, but one day her daughter came home and she had told a friend something in confidence, and that friend had told the whole class, and they were laughing and, you know, horribly. Um, her daughter was mortified. And so she said, Well, that friend lost all their marbles in the marble jar. You didn't take the jar away. You weren't like completely walking away from the friendship, but that was maybe not the first person you were gonna choose to put that trust in. And I like that image of, okay, we we earn those marbles. And we may dump out the marbles or we may forgive other people losing their marbles and we're gonna make that choice to trust them again. But I liked that imagery of you gotta have your marbles. I am also of the age where I feel like sometimes I'm losing my marbles. So, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

I was just thinking, like, was that a planned pun?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Dina. No. Oh, did that bump bump right here? Tip your waitresses. All right. So as we wrap up today, what are your final takeaways from this message?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm just really excited to continue in the story of Jacob over these next couple weeks, and especially leading to Christmas, where there's so many additional family things, like just leaning into this series uh to try and be better, healthier families together.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, two pieces. Number one would be let's not avoid conflict when we have it. And that's this is with anybody, but especially in the family. Let's let's figure out a way where we can have a healthy conversation around it and and uh understand one another and hear their story and all that good stuff. So let's not avoid conflict. Number two would be Seth's then two sermon series. I'm wondering if he can preach anything outside of a television series. Because his first one was pardoned this interruption, which was a ploy off of an ESPN show. Now we're doing a family matter series. I think Seth's a one-trick pony.

SPEAKER_02:

That I think that's a fair.

SPEAKER_03:

And so I'm challenging Seth in 2026 to see if he has a sermon series that's not related to a TV show. And if not, that's okay. He's doing great.

SPEAKER_00:

But you know, I was just gonna say, like, what does that challenge come with? That means that you just want to preach more when he doesn't come up with that.

SPEAKER_03:

No, I just I've just I just have noticed two television.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. What have you had a television reference recently in your sermon series?

SPEAKER_03:

I have done, I have actually done a series called Family Matters in Florida. Which church hasn't done for the lot of churches that have done Family Matters? I'm totally joking. So that's amazing, super fun. And let's see if we can preach a non-television show.

SPEAKER_02:

If he were here right now, Zach, he might respond and say, Zach, can you preach anything other than a 40-day challenge? Like you could say that.

SPEAKER_00:

Ooh, that's challenging.

SPEAKER_03:

That's a challenge.

SPEAKER_00:

The gauntlet is dropped.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there may be a lot of people. Bring it on, Zach. It's not you.

SPEAKER_03:

It sounds like you and I got to talk, man. We got some conflict.

SPEAKER_00:

We may have pastoral rivalry to go through.

SPEAKER_03:

Zach, you're raising your voice in the podcast again.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm gonna turn it back.

SPEAKER_03:

I'll have you as a guest if you continue.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. Well, we are gonna look forward to our next week of Family Matters. And until then, let's keep living our faith beyond Sunday.

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