Beyond Sunday
Beyond Sunday
Nuts & Bolts: The Framework of Discipleship
In this episode of Beyond Sunday, we explore how Jesus shifts discipleship from rule-following to heart transformation through the Sermon on the Mount. Using the metaphor of a house’s framework, we unpack how grace—not performance—shapes our obedience, challenging us to build lives rooted in Christ’s love and character.
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Thanks for listening!
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the podcast where we take a look at the sermon series of King of Kings and see what we're taking beyond Sunday. My name is Dena Newsom and I'm glad you're here with us. I have some special guests today and I'm going to let them introduce themselves.
Speaker 2:I'm Roger Timer, one of the pastors here, and I also am glad to be here.
Speaker 3:Peter Bay campus director for King's Northwest and, yeah, ready to dive into this message.
Speaker 1:All right, I don't know if you guys know it, but this week is National Fragrance Week, so my questions for you to get us started today, are what are your favorite smell? What's your favorite fragrance and what's like a smell that unlocks the core memory for?
Speaker 2:you? Oh, that's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you got one you want me to start.
Speaker 2:No, you go you go.
Speaker 1:My favorite smell is campfire smell when it's burning wood, which can be destruction but can be very pleasant gathering. I love campfire smell but my core memory smell is lilacs. We had rows of bushes of lilacs in our backyard when I was growing up. My mom would collect the flowers and bring them inside and our whole house would smell like lilacs and it just makes me think of my childhood of summer of my childhood, of summer, of my mom.
Speaker 2:I just love that. Wow, that's cool. Makes me want to go to your memories Because, well, when you said fragrance, the first thing I thought of is that my favorite fragrance is whatever cologne my wife gives me to wear, because her olfactory senses are so much more acute and I don't care how I smell that much, but I like it. When she says oh, I like that smell.
Speaker 1:That's a smart man right there. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But if I were to go with the guy's smell, I'm going to have to go campfire, because that reminds me of especially even like when it's on your clothes and you're on a couple-day backpack trip. You smell like fun and adventure. That's what it means to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my favorite smells all deal with food. So I mean bacon's undefeated, oh yeah, like the vanilla of, like cinnamon rolls or baking smells meat in general. Just those really fill my heart with joy. Now it's interesting Both of you have like it's a good that campfire smell. So for me, I smelled campfire the other day. I get home from work and I have to like walk and look around and be like can I spot it? Do I see it? Because we had a house fire. Yeah, and that's what we thought it was.
Speaker 1:A whole other core memory.
Speaker 3:Right, we thought it was a campfire until we realized it was our house. So when I smelled that, when I got home I even checked all the areas of our house the garage, the backyard, whatever before I felt okay to just do life. So it's interesting. So that smell triggers something very different to me than it ever did prior.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thank you guys for sharing some of your memories, good and bad those smells how it works in our brain is really amazing to me how God created that.
Speaker 1:So God also created our inspiration for our Nuts and Bolts series, which is the Sermon of the Mount. So this series we are diving into, constructing a disciple from the ground up, and Pastor Zach has been leading us through three weeks so far. We talked about the foundation in week one, the design week two, and then this week it was all about the frame, the framework. So Zach opened his sermon with a question have you ever bent the rules for your benefit?
Speaker 2:I think there are personality types that have a tendency to get on a continuum one side or the other. At least there is in my home, because as far as I am, hey, that rule didn't quite apply to me. My wife is the consummate rule follower, so we find ourselves sometimes paralyzed. When we're taking a walk or a trip or something, I say, well, let's come over here. No, that's not our, we can't go over there. Yeah, we can, it's not our property, they don't care. I say, well, let's come over here. No, that's not our, we can't go over there. Yeah, we can, it's not our property, they don't care, it's that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think my whole life has been trying to find these loopholes. I'm nervous of what to share because I don't want people to leave the church or whatever. But when?
Speaker 2:I was in high school later yeah, for real.
Speaker 3:When I was in high school I go to movie theaters and Zach mentioned like how some people sneak food into movie theaters. I didn't do that a whole lot, but what I would do is way grosser. I would go, I would find a popcorn bucket that didn't have the mark on the bottom because you could get one refill and an extra large soda, and I would just grab them from the trash and I'd bring them back up and they'd refill the popcorn and the large soda for free. I didn't pay for popcorn or soda all through high school and I would like go on dates and like still do this, and the girls would just be so disgusted I'd be like well, this is what you get, yeah.
Speaker 3:You want it or not. So that's just one of the uh, one of the ways that I think I've bent the rules, but many more if we ever talk personally mine is really about.
Speaker 1:Zach talked about speed limits and that's really where I'm like. Oh, it can be two to three miles over in town and it's definitely a solid seven to ten on the interstate over the speed limit. That's where I set my cruise and just hope for the best.
Speaker 2:I've got one thought about this, though, like when it comes to taxes if there is a declaration of $20 that I didn't declare, or maybe I got paid something, I will do whatever it takes to make sure it's in my taxes, because for me, I think of, I do not want to sell my honesty for a $20 tax break. So that one, I'm rigidly in the rules, but that's about honesty. The other stuff it's not about honesty, it's about practicality.
Speaker 3:Is that honesty connected to tax fraud or what?
Speaker 1:Does that just depend, if he's caught?
Speaker 2:Right, I don't know how many audits have you been through? Not any.
Speaker 1:So Zach related this to the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law, talking about how we can be letter of the law people where we are taking the word of God just word for word exactly what it means. Or if it's the spirit of the law, which is, what does it really mean? You guys have anything you took away from the opening of that discussion?
Speaker 2:I thought it was very insightful because he also said Jesus is talking to both and the letter of the law is really easy to pick out, because they're Pharisees and that was their business and their religion was worn on the outside. How do I look? What are the rules? Oh, maybe we need some more rules, and if I make the rules and you've got to follow them, then I'm in more power and Jesus is messing with us. But Jesus came from both sides, and even for the spirit of the law, because making up just kind of whatever you want, as if the law doesn't matter, well, and Jesus' whole matter was what about your heart? Let's get at your heart.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, Oftentimes when I think letter of the law and spirit of the law, I think of it because I'm wired to manipulate it, to be like, yeah, I know you told me I'm supposed to drive this speed or whatever, but what are we doing here? Like, come on, I have this speed or I'm whatever, but what are we doing here? Like, come on. And so when I think of spirit of the law, normally I think of it in a way of like, how can I get away with something? But this is the opposite. It's the laws here, but you're breaking it. Even if you didn't murder somebody. You're breaking it If you thought poorly of someone. Um, you're breaking adultery If you thought, uh, had lust, thought poorly of someone. You're breaking adultery if you had lustful thoughts of someone. And so it's actually the opposite and gives me it doesn't give me wiggle room to get away with things, it just gives me more of a no, I'm breaking the law even if I didn't murder, even if I didn't commit adultery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like he really just talks about. Jesus says flat out you have heard it said this, but what I really mean is this, and it just broadens that view of what that is yeah, so on some of those topics, is there anything that really struck you guys on adultery, murder, divorce, eye for an eye, taking an oath, some of those things that he brought up, what spoke to you?
Speaker 2:Well, the one thing that spoke to me over all of them was Jesus wasn't downplaying them, he was actually digging into them. But he also said I have fulfilled the law. And I think he gives us a whole new awareness to look deeper. And if we look deep, we will always find ways that we come up short of living that perfect life of love that he gives us to. And that's basically what the law does. It's guidelines to live a perfect life of love, but, thank you Jesus, he fulfilled it. Each one of those he lived perfectly. And that's kind of one of the things resonating in my heart as I was listening, because Zach mentioned well, don't think that I came to abolish it, but I came to fulfill it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's always been a confusing phrase to me, so I don't know if either of you can unpack that a little bit. The whole, like Jesus became sin because he's sinless, so how does he become sin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so good. Oh well, he who knew no sin became sin for us, Right he might become.
Speaker 2:The righteousness of God was something apart from him that was actually placed on him when the wrath of God was poured out against sin, it personally had to be attached to him because a human mean we needed, we deserved it. So for him to take it, he literally had to be the recipient of the full wrath of God against sin and in that sense he was literally made. Sin for us Doesn't mean he's sinful, but he was the recipient of all the wrath of God because our sin placed on him.
Speaker 1:So that ties right into what Pastor Zach talked about, when he talked about Jesus bore all the weight of our sin, and when he was talking about the framework of this nuts and bolts series, the framework. When you build a house or a building, there's a structure in it that really supports the weight of that, and how serendipitous is it that it is called the cross beam and. Jesus bore the weight of our sin on the cross.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is such a cool picture. There's a Louis Giglio talks about this in the human body. There's something that holds the body together called laminin. It's also in the form of a cross, but, yeah, the structure that keeps a house upright and keeps that roof of protection over you is a cross beam. Yeah, to tie that into our lives. It's this tricky thing because it is.
Speaker 3:As Lutherans, we have learned that the law must not predominate the gospel, and so that elevates the gospel. We teach the gospel most every week in one way or another, and that's really good. But the reality is, oftentimes the gospel is sandwiched by the law. So the law first reveals to condemn us, so we know that we need the gospel. And then the gospel comes in and says and you can't earn this. This is all done by Christ, who died for you so that you may have salvation. And then it's followed up by now because of this, like, go live a life for God. Um, cast your eyes on the cross. You know, like, do this, and so it's you've got law, gospel law. You know, like, do this, and so you've got law, gospel law, which I think is a really good order for us to know that because of what Christ did, we are saved. That crossbeam sustains us Now don't live like it doesn't Go do something about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gives us freedom to make that response based on love, not based on trying to work an exchange out and saying, okay, you'll love me if or I'll earn or merit. Here's something that I can remember as a teenager. This came up in a Bible study and they said if you've ever called anyone, you know, look at these examples of sin. You know you're in danger of the hellfire, of the fires of sin, just by calling someone raka or you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, raka it translated nimwit empty-headed. I took that note.
Speaker 2:Yeah, blockhead. He used that in one of the messages have you had people call you that Peter.
Speaker 2:Yes, and taking that into context, you know it can be very indicting. It can be very indicting. But if we get so focused on just are we doing it right or wrong, it's a trap, because who are we looking at Us? And before long we'll be measuring our very worth, our very relationship, for that matter, on how well are we doing? And that's why the cross beam is so important. Look at the cross, hey. Stop looking at and focusing on what's already been dealt with. And look at the cross, hey. Stop looking at and focusing on what's already been dealt with. And look at the cross. And there you have the freedom of that forgiveness. That lets you, hey, build the house. Let's build the discipleship house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's really easy to in this side of the resurrection to look at those Pharisees and be like what idiots those rock guys like just so concerned with how well they follow the law. But yet how many of our relationships are predicated on that, where it's like any relationship, where it's they will like me if I do. This is that, and it's not a great relationship, rather than a relationship that says I love you because you're my friend, or you're my spouse, or you're my child, and because Christ loved me first.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And because of that I desire to be obedient or show kindness or whatever it is. The order really matters yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and the transformation because it's coming out of the heart and he wants to deal with the heart, not just what's on the outside. And I just think it's so easy for us to. You know, it's easy sometimes for us to repent of what we've done wrong, but sometimes we need to repent of our own righteousness and just trying to look good on the outside, that's self-righteousness. Now it takes both of those kinds of repentance and that's something that happens in the heart and that's what Jesus is getting at.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I often. About five years ago, there was a huge term amongst Christians and people who are leaving Christianity called deconstruction. Yeah, and it's still a term that's thrown out often, and when I hear deconstruction stories whether through people I meet or stories I read, articles or videos they often are people deconstructing from what you just spoke about, Pastor Roger, of like it's. They saw Christianity in a form that really wasn't Christianity. It was people who were trying to look good, like they were following the law, but they knew that those people were miserable sinners like them and they were deconstructing from that, which I honestly think is something we ought to deconstruct from. But don't let our foolishness as humans take away from Christ, and when we fix ourselves on each other or on ourselves, it gets pretty skewed. It's a house that crumbles, but when we fix our eyes on the cross, well then it helps us to see the people around us as what we really are flawed, but also called and redeemed by the one who saved us.
Speaker 1:Yes, In Matthew 5, verse 48, it says Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect, and I really liked what Pastor Zach said about this. He said you look at that in our normal life and that really makes us feel worse about ourselves Because there's no way I'm living a perfect life. There's just no standard of that that I can come close to, but it makes us feel better about Jesus.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 1:Because, he did do that and he does do that for us. Yeah, did you guys have any other things that really you know you're going to take beyond Sunday with you from this message?
Speaker 2:I'm going to probably check some of my self permission, about my spirit of the law my wife and I, I'm sure, are going to have some further conversations about hmm. Okay, maybe I should dial that one back a bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and for me, I mean, there were some immediate things that that this message caused to stick out in my head, some convictions and some immediate changes in ways that I've been like. Well, this isn't a sin, but it's distracting me from actually seeing and caring about my family, and so changing some things in my life, like that day and the day after that, that were good, that'll help me to be less distracted and more present with those around me. And then, as far as like something like I think I'm still going to speed, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Let's not talk about that.
Speaker 2:Okay, but I would say this the difference is. The difference is the heart is different. It's about what Jesus has done to change our hearts through the wonderful gift of His forgiveness. That gives us a freedom to now look at all different parts of our life and have a kind of a willing freshness to say well, you know, there's some other things that you know, maybe I'm not doing best and I'm only settling for good, and that's the freedom that he brings us.
Speaker 3:Right and further than that, there are things that I'm not settling for good.
Speaker 1:I'm breaking laws but others aren't seeing it.
Speaker 2:So it's okay. And this is what Jesus is saying.
Speaker 3:No, it's not okay. Yeah, I mean. And every time we we do that, we fool ourselves, we desensitize ourselves and we um, we are tricked by our own sin. Satan loves to trick us in that way To say you know what, you're okay, nobody sees it. Which is funny because at the same time he tricks us to say, like you're not okay, you're condemned, you're not worth saving. And so there's that constant balance of like get our eyes off of ourselves, fix it on Jesus. Imbalance of like get our eyes off of ourselves, fix it on Jesus. And then, once we have that foundation, once we have that cross, once we have something bigger than ourselves in our lives, well then we see ourselves and the people around us very differently.
Speaker 1:I had a leader growing up that used to say you wanted to live Jesus with your heart, not just your skin, and I think of that when he talks about these things. You have heard it said in the letter of the law that's living it with your skin, like the very outwardly side of it, and when you go to but he really means this, that's living it with your heart. You know what are you thinking inside that, like you said, other people can't see. And how are we shifting that? So the one thing that I really like about the Sermon on the Mount that Zach points out again and again every week is that it is not about us getting to heaven, it is about bringing heaven down to earth. You guys have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:The main message Jesus taught was kingdom. The kingdom of God is at hand, and this is his platform message on it, but then the kingdom of God is fulfilled when he completed his mission and went to the cross for us and rose again to prove that it worked.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and success looks very different.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like kingdom success looks very different than this world's definition.
Speaker 3:Well, and that shifts into so many things. The picture of success for a young high school girl is that they're in multiple activities and they're dating someone who's really good at what they do, and they have college offers at big schools and they already at what they do. And they have college offers at big schools and they already know what they're doing. And oh, by the way, they started their own nonprofit. As a 16-year-old Holy cow, we should all strive to be like that kid.
Speaker 3:Well, studies are showing that that kid lives a whole lot a life of higher stress, lower life satisfaction, than the person who says I want to live simply, I'm going to strive to do well at what God has given me, but I don't need to be the one with 10 scholarship offers and a 4.4. Those things are good, but what is success really? Those things are good, but what is success really? And I think this is another one of those refocus messages Blessed is the peacemaker, blessed is the meek. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, if I'm living after, like, how can I bless myself to get a Bentley?
Speaker 1:Yikes, not the right type of success. I didn't read that in the Bible.
Speaker 3:No, no, and if you have a Bentley, sweet.
Speaker 1:Let me know I want to ride in it Over the speed limit.
Speaker 3:You know, not too much, maybe a little. Open it up, let's see what it can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thank you guys so much for being here, and next week we're going to look at the systems in the Nuts and Bolts series.
Speaker 2:So we'll see what Zach has to say about that. For now, let's keep living our faith beyond Sunday. Thank you, Dina.
